Thread subject: What we are seeing according to an expert...
||07/20/07 11:37 am
||I just got a hold of Greg, my osprey banding buddy. I laid out the whole situation and he said he has never seen an osprey family would never turn on its own chick and run it out of the nest. He is certain that what we are seeing is another confused juvie who does not belong in the nest and the realities are our other chick was blown out of the nest and is on the ground, with all the predatorial implications.
||07/20/07 11:43 am
But they are together in the nest now Mel, so if that is so one of our chicks must have been away from the area when the aggression took place..
||07/20/07 11:47 am
||Time will tell. I'm not convinced that the chick who was getting fended off after the cam came back up (and even this morning) is our other chick.
||07/20/07 11:56 am
||I don't know Melanie. Having seen them both there feeding - the non aggressive one being fed first while the other stood and waited - and then seen the aggressive one decide for no apparent reason some time after the food had all gone that he was going to shove the other off the nest, I'm inclined to think it is sibling rivalry that we're seeing.
I'm watching them now and although they're each minding their own business, there is tension in the air. The one is wary of the other, and the other always seems on the verge of adopting the bully boy tactics again.
But that's only my impression and it could well be that the expert knows best. I'm watching the nest with great interest that's for sure.
The thing is with these two, they've never really known hunger as far as I can tell. Dennis has been pretty good on the supply front this year, so this is a new thing for them. Maybe just as well it didn't happen before they could fly! :o
||07/20/07 12:02 pm
||But even BEtty has joined in on kicking the chick out of the nest - we saw that yesterday. Perhaps the prodigal chick has returned - now. But when the cam came back up yesterday, I'm not convinced that was our second chick.
||07/20/07 12:54 pm
||But isn't this the natural order of maturity? Once they fledge (intentionally or with a nudge from Mother Nature), once they are actually able to fly around, get to know the area and learn the ways of osprey, that's when the regular feeding drops off, to encourage them to look for the parents, follow them to the food source, and begin the fishing lessons. Of course, they will still be fed in the nest, just less frequently. Barring a disaster, I don't think it's ever cold turkey.
And therefore, once this stage kicks in, the survival of the fittest, aka, sibling rivalry, begins to develop. I think that because these 2 have been so especially placid and sweet-natured and so *peas-in-a-pod* up to this point, that could be why all this noise and aggression seems so odd to us.
Just my thoughts, until some other theory comes along
||07/20/07 12:57 pm
||I've been watching two chicks for ten minutes or so and they are sitting side by side, looking in the same direction. One of them had been begging non-stop until the adult that was on the cam flew off. I've been so busy with our puppy lately that I didn't take head shots of these chicks, so I can't tell if they are Uno & Dos or not, but right now they both seem disinterested in each other. I will say that the one on the right looks quite a bit bigger. Was that the case before the cam went down?
||07/20/07 01:08 pm
||I also noticed that the one on the right looked bigger but thought it might have been just the angle, the fluffing of feathers in the wind, whatever. Who knows. They sure seem fine together right now, as I type, side by side, contemplating their next move.
||07/20/07 01:11 pm
||IMHO, the one on the right is Dos and looks bigger. I think it is the natural course that food deliveries are dropping off. They do seem fine with each other right now. Maybe they had a big tiff on their fledging date and now have truce. :-)
||07/20/07 01:30 pm
||Here is a capture from a few mins ago.
Uno left, Dos right...yes?
||07/20/07 01:33 pm
||Nothing says one of our chicks isn't hanging out in someone else's nest, especially if the food deliveries are better there. I'd say they were both very capable of flight even if someone got blown out of the nest. I'd doubt they were on the ground.
With the weather there the past days, could have been some nests got blown out.
I've read it's not uncommon for chicks to check out other nests when they first fledge, nor is it uncommon for adults to feed strange chicks. The one chick does look a lot bigger, and I recall "ours" being so close in size it was impossible for me to tell them apart. I'd say if there was that huge difference in size a few days ago, none of us would have been posting, help with chick ID please comments.
||07/20/07 01:41 pm
||I can see a slight difference in size but not a huge one, in my capture above. Can anyone else?
||07/20/07 01:52 pm
||Yes, Daisy, Uno l, Dos r., and I can't see much difference in size, maybe just a case of dos centimeters, probably from fluffing up:-).
Gotta go make sure everything is in order before the RE agent gets here. It IS exciting, Daisy, but it's exhausting, too.
Going well so far,
||07/20/07 02:15 pm
||I'm watching now and both chicks are chirping loudly looking up at the cam. I can definitely see the "hula dancer on the chick closest to the cam, and yes I now see the outline of a hula dancer on the other chick. Both are fish chirping amicably together. And they both look very much the same size. Perhaps yesterday, the storm, confusion with all these new fledglings flying as a result of the winds on Wednesday, there were more visitors than usual to different nests. I also think hunger is a new feeling for these once satisfied chicks. As I close this one of the chicks, Dos I believe is walking closer to Uno who is remaining calm and accepting of him picking at the nesting material near him. In our archived videos we have a video of two chicks fighting over a piece of fish after fledging, so at this point I am inclined to think that if we see aggression with these two chicks it's when they are hungry
See this video of two chicks fighting over a fish before fledging and after fledging
See "Chicks get Violent, 7/1/05 & Mad Scramble for a Meal 7/17/05
||07/20/07 02:17 pm
||Yes Daisy, agreed on the order. Harder to tell the difference now, for sure, but there is one.
||07/20/07 02:31 pm
||Well just tell Greg hes wrong and thats that lololol
Dont rain on our parade Greg !!
||07/20/07 02:43 pm
||They may be our regular chicks now, but I still maintain that the "intruding" chick that we saw getting beat out of the nest by both birds when the cam came back on yesterday was not our missing chick.
||07/20/07 03:00 pm
||Mel ?? Im saying a very special prayer for you for Sunday *angel*
It involves mosquitos :))
||07/20/07 03:37 pm
||I was just going to say that Melanie. What we saw last night may have been an intruder...and we assumed it was our chick. The nest has certainly been peaceful...
||07/20/07 03:38 pm
||???When did Betty turn on a juvie,???? I have been looking and have not found her turning on any of them..
||07/20/07 04:02 pm
||I didn't see Betty turn on a juvie either. The way I saw it yesterday she pulled back when the youngster tried to land. When Uno beat it off Betty flew up to the cam perch. I may have missed something though.
Daisy yes I to agree on who is who in your photo. It's a good clear shot, that one.
I agree with Shelley on the natural order. I think we should probably be very pleased to see these two fighting their own corners, not taking any nonsense from anybody or bowing down and being submissive. I know we all worry about the little one in the nest who gets pushed around by the others, so really we should be delighted to see these two both so sure of themselves and their own importance.
As Shelley says, we've just not been used to it up until now and that conditions our reactions. Remember how we all shouted for Flag last year - he was our hero. So maybe this year we've got two heroes? I have great hopes for Uno and Dos - I think they're both born to meet life head on and triumph over adversity :)
||07/20/07 04:41 pm
||I have never seen Betty chase away a juvenile but then I'm not watching the cam all the time. I can't imagine she would though. I also saw her fly up to the cam perch when one chick ploughed into the other.
Yes agree about conditioned reactions and I must admit to being horrified at the time. But then hunger and survival must take priority otherwise they are dead ospreys before long.
||07/20/07 07:46 pm
||Everyone has been watching/posting since 5pm yesterday.If Betty had chased off a juvie, SOMEONE would have written about it.And no-one did.
||07/21/07 05:13 am
||Just a thought - I seem to remember Star going missing for a while when he first fledged last year. So maybe Uno did the same and that second chick on Thursday was from another nest.
||07/21/07 08:39 am
||you remember right Anne.
1st chick fledges. Star. #1. 7/20/06 5:59am gone 2hrs 15mins
||07/21/07 08:58 am
||Quote Melanie "But even BEtty has joined in on kicking the chick out of the nest - we saw that yesterday".
This is why I asked.
||07/21/07 11:48 am
||Oh I thought he went missing for hours and hours. Maybe it was later on whilst we were waiting for Flag to go.